It's not supposed to glow like this, is it?

[Rainbow83]

Hello folks,

So, after putting that mustang radiator in my car last month, I've been driving the car around a bit, and I've run into some more issues. Notably, the car seems rather down on power, and I discovered after a brief highway hill climb at about 80 mph that the engine is putting a lot of heat into the exhaust. Like, a lot a lot.

Here are some pictures taken after that hill climb to show what I am talking about.
https://imgur.com/a/kqtCBxm

Besides the red hot turbo and lack of power, the car also produces lots of smoke when running and leaves a dark spot on the ground behind the exhaust tip when it sits idling, so I suspect I've got unburnt fuel combusting on its way through the exhaust. I pulled codes though and got codes 34 and 41, indicating a non-functional EGR valve and a signal out of range/lean reading from the O2 sensor, which seems to contradict the observed rich conditions.

I have checked the timing of the engine, and that is good. I have also recently replaced the fuel pump, filter, and injectors and I have good fuel pressure, so it is not either of those causing problems here.

One theory that I have is that maybe the bad O2 sensor is making the ECU think it's running lean and it's trying to correct that by dumping loads of fuel in and therefore actually running rich.

Another theory is that maybe, since the car sat in a barn and had mice in the interior, the muffler and cat could be blocked with mouse nests, which might prevent hot exhaust from evacuating the manifold and turbo well.

I did buy (but haven't yet installed) a new O2 sensor and a new EGR valve anyway since they're not too expensive, but before I do further parts cannon work and replace the exhaust, I'm curious to hear.if anyone on here has any ideas as to what might be going on here. Thanks in advance for any help.

[zxr250cc]

Hi all,

The turbo glowing is normal for these when running either well or poorly. Open the hood in the evening (no ambient light) and look at it after a drive and you will see why I used to let it sit and idle for a bit to cool the turbo some before shut off. This is what cooks all the other stuff near it, including the battery. This is also why only premium motor oil should be used in these cars to oil the turbo bearing while it spins down and then not carbon up the bearing from the heat when sitting.


How much smoke are you having? How many miles on the car? If the turbo has a problem with an oil seal leak internally the smoke will be 'a lot' and that will possibly kill the 'cat' if enough oil gets in it. The voice of experience here...

As for cooling, is the water line clear so that the water cooling is working for the turbo?

Cheers

[my8950]

Hello folks,

So, after putting that mustang radiator in my car last month, I've been driving the car around a bit, and I've run into some more issues. Notably, the car seems rather down on power, and I discovered after a brief highway hill climb at about 80 mph that the engine is putting a lot of heat into the exhaust. Like, a lot a lot.

Here are some pictures taken after that hill climb to show what I am talking about.
https://imgur.com/a/kqtCBxm

Besides the red hot turbo and lack of power, the car also produces lots of smoke when running and leaves a dark spot on the ground behind the exhaust tip when it sits idling, so I suspect I've got unburnt fuel combusting on its way through the exhaust. I pulled codes though and got codes 34 and 41, indicating a non-functional EGR valve and a signal out of range/lean reading from the O2 sensor, which seems to contradict the observed rich conditions.

I have checked the timing of the engine, and that is good. I have also recently replaced the fuel pump, filter, and injectors and I have good fuel pressure, so it is not either of those causing problems here.

One theory that I have is that maybe the bad O2 sensor is making the ECU think it's running lean and it's trying to correct that by dumping loads of fuel in and therefore actually running rich.

Another theory is that maybe, since the car sat in a barn and had mice in the interior, the muffler and cat could be blocked with mouse nests, which might prevent hot exhaust from evacuating the manifold and turbo well.

I did buy (but haven't yet installed) a new O2 sensor and a new EGR valve anyway since they're not too expensive, but before I do further parts cannon work and replace the exhaust, I'm curious to hear.if anyone on here has any ideas as to what might be going on here. Thanks in advance for any help.

A little glow is ok, however the photo you posted, if that is your 2.3T, is quite a bit more than a little glow.
As you mentioned, if its down on power, one thing you can do to try and eliminate the exhaust is to disconnect it.
I am not sure if you have stock exhaust, or something else. But, disconnect at the first location, closest to the turbo.
Take it for a drive, it will be loud and obnoxious, but it will eliminate the exhaust, so catalytic converter and anything else clogged is now out of the equation.

Before the above though, I am wondering when you say timing is ok. Did you check ignition timing with a light? Mine did similar to what you describe, I found I was about 10-12deg too retarded, which will make the manifold and turbo glow due to burning too late and the heat going into the exhaust. Cam timing can do the same if too retarded, if you haven't checked that, I would.

Have you done the basics, such as fuel filter, plugs and wires, cap and rotor? Not that this will cause the issue, but it will help if these parts are working properly.

[andyofcolumbusmerkur]

You said a brief highway hill climb. Those pictures look more like multiple hard dyno pulls. Even then I would expect a slight orange color visible only in the dark. That looks more like bright almost white we are hot enough to start brazing temps. How do the plugs look?

[Ed Lijewski]

A too lean mixture = sharply raised exhaust temperature (2.3t is engineered to operate on richer side).

Cam timing needs to be verified (slipped timing belt = "down on power").

YMMV

[andyofcolumbusmerkur]

Reading about the famous Ruf 911 the "Yellow Bird" in a Road and Track magazine, the writer got to drive the car around as a daily driver. This was common because they got to test the cars in real world driving. Yes the car was tuned and running correctly and extremely fast. However the car ran so rich it would bother the driver and other people waiting at the traffic light or intersection because of all the exhaust fumes. The article's writer was given an explanation from the people that built the car. It needed to have extra fuel to cool the air cooled engine or it would overheat. It could be tuned to be more street friendly but would make less power. The turbos didn't have, or need, a water cooled center section. The turbos were not glowing bright white/orange and melting everything under the boot. The car was race ready and much more reliable than other fast cars like the Ferrari F40 or Lamborghini Diablo they tested.

[Rainbow83]

A little glow is ok, however the photo you posted, if that is your 2.3T, is quite a bit more than a little glow.
As you mentioned, if its down on power, one thing you can do to try and eliminate the exhaust is to disconnect it.
I am not sure if you have stock exhaust, or something else. But, disconnect at the first location, closest to the turbo.
Take it for a drive, it will be loud and obnoxious, but it will eliminate the exhaust, so catalytic converter and anything else clogged is now out of the equation.

Before the above though, I am wondering when you say timing is ok. Did you check ignition timing with a light? Mine did similar to what you describe, I found I was about 10-12deg too retarded, which will make the manifold and turbo glow due to burning too late and the heat going into the exhaust. Cam timing can do the same if too retarded, if you haven't checked that, I would.

Have you done the basics, such as fuel filter, plugs and wires, cap and rotor? Not that this will cause the issue, but it will help if these parts are working properly.

I have previously checked the ignition timing with a light and found it to be at 10° BTDC with the spout connector disconnected. I also did the cam timing when I replaced the timing belt so both ignition and the valves are in time. Spark plugs, ignition coil, spark plug wires, coil wire, distributor cap, and distributor rotor are all new, as well as fuel filter, pump, and injectors.

I'm not going to be able to work on the car much in the next month or so, since I'll be traveling over the holidays, so this is probably the last update I'll post until at least the middle of January.

[my8950]

A little glow is ok, however the photo you posted, if that is your 2.3T, is quite a bit more than a little glow.
As you mentioned, if its down on power, one thing you can do to try and eliminate the exhaust is to disconnect it.
I am not sure if you have stock exhaust, or something else. But, disconnect at the first location, closest to the turbo.
Take it for a drive, it will be loud and obnoxious, but it will eliminate the exhaust, so catalytic converter and anything else clogged is now out of the equation.

Before the above though, I am wondering when you say timing is ok. Did you check ignition timing with a light? Mine did similar to what you describe, I found I was about 10-12deg too retarded, which will make the manifold and turbo glow due to burning too late and the heat going into the exhaust. Cam timing can do the same if too retarded, if you haven't checked that, I would.

Have you done the basics, such as fuel filter, plugs and wires, cap and rotor? Not that this will cause the issue, but it will help if these parts are working properly.

I have previously checked the ignition timing with a light and found it to be at 10° BTDC with the spout connector disconnected. I also did the cam timing when I replaced the timing belt so both ignition and the valves are in time. Spark plugs, ignition coil, spark plug wires, coil wire, distributor cap, and distributor rotor are all new, as well as fuel filter, pump, and injectors.

I'm not going to be able to work on the car much in the next month or so, since I'll be traveling over the holidays, so this is probably the last update I'll post until at least the middle of January.

I guess if you are confident with the timing, both ignition and cam, then I would drop the exhaust in front of the "Cadillac" converter to eliminate an exhaust clogged issue.

[zxr250cc]

Hi all,

It has been normal in my car to blow out mouse junk from the exhaust pipe after sitting in a building on a farm when not in use. It is surprising how much stuff can be in there each time. Hard workers, those mice.

Cheers

[andyofcolumbusmerkur]

Your car is a 5 speed with the stock computer? Should be 13 degrees BTDC with the spout connector disconnected. Maybe you swapped out the computer already. I would think the car would run, but just be tad on the sluggish side using 10 instead of 13. I don't think that by itself would cause major problems. I hope you let things cool down after things got that hot and didn't shut off the engine. Pull those plugs out and give them a look. If one cylinder wasn't firing I could imagine a bunch of unburned fuel getting burned up in the exhaust and causing some problems.

[Rainbow83]

Your car is a 5 speed with the stock computer? Should be 13 degrees BTDC with the spout connector disconnected. Maybe you swapped out the computer already. I would think the car would run, but just be tad on the sluggish side using 10 instead of 13. I don't think that by itself would cause major problems. I hope you let things cool down after things got that hot and didn't shut off the engine. Pull those plugs out and give them a look. If one cylinder wasn't firing I could imagine a bunch of unburned fuel getting burned up in the exhaust and causing some problems.

13°, good to know. I can't remember where I read 10°, but I think it was in reference to an SVO. I should have figured the different computers would want different specs. I have the stock computer in right now.

I did give it plenty of time to cool down with the engine running and hood open after I took that picture. I will have a look at the sparkplugs when I get back in January.

[zxr250cc]

Hi all,

The 10 degree setting is for an automatic car, not the 5 speed manual. I think the T-BIRD, COUGAR and SVO are all the exact same settings as an XR with their various generations of the computer.

Cheers

[my8950]

10 or 13 degrees is not going to make much of a difference, certainly not with the amount of glow coming off this exhaust manifold.
Whatever is going on, timing, plugged exhaust or other, 3 degrees is not going to make this type of difference.
I've set mine at 8, 10 and 12, I stay conservative on the timing, but also always run 93 octane fuel.
Regardless...maybe if its 13 degrees after TDC it may be causing this, hopefully that is not the case.

[Ed Lijewski]

^^ Yeah; from the start here I wondered if the device used to take that photo distorted the actual manifold color. Reds, oranges, after heavy 2.3 turbo use are common. White, is not FWIW.

YMMV

[zxr250cc]

Hi all,

Yes, it should run OK with either timing setting with all else working as it should.

I think the lean idea is probably related to the problem. If it was rich it would tend to run cooler, I believe. Has this car run right then been left to sit a long time? Or is this an unknown history used car running funny when purchased? We are seeing the symptom with the excess heat.. In a non boosted car I would look for a vacuum leak.

Cheers